I must say this is an excellent article, I started my company about a year ago and at this very moment we are pitching a prospect who could get us lots of work, because she is completely connected in the her field but the client worksheet is vague and so I’ve set up face to face and i will use the suggestions from greg hoy ! thanks you so much , !
I second what has been said previously: 5-6 months at the LEAST seems an awful long time for a project. Sure, a larger project would take that amount of time, but most projects wouldn’t taken any more than a month if you’re working full-time on it. By this I’m talking about the projects that one does for nurseries and photographers, for example, because with these you can only do a certain amount of information architecture, search engine optimisation and research.
Other than that I completely agree with what you’ve written and I’m sick of getting clients who think they can walk all over me. Unfortunately people don’t see this faceless person behind an email as anything more than a drone sometimes, so they think they can treat us poorly, then when or if we snap, they’re the ones that run off with their tails in between their legs, crying. Rest assured, I’ve never snapped but have been very close – it’s always better to bite your tongue and leave it.
There are plenty of articles like this around the web and my advice to anyone reading it is to seek those out too, on places like FreelanceFolder or FreelanceShack, that way you’ll get a better insight!
Dave T: I agree. However, if you’re a smaller shop, I’d suggest steering clear of the RFPs if you can. A small firm’s chances with an RFP are slim. Even Happy Cog’s chances with an RFP are slim, despite our reputation.
So then comes the magic question – how do you get work?
My only advice here is to do good work for good people. Build the portfolio. Word will spread. Boring, I know, but that’s the best I can sum it up.
Great job on the article Greg. Reading through it made images of several clients I have worked with in the past flash into my head. The article gave me quite a bit to think about.
With my 11 years of web design / development, I couldn’t agree more with Greg’s list. I even added 3 more warning signs and 3 positives signs of prospects you should die for.
3 more warning signs
Wannabe web millionaire with no commitment
Mountain of molehill’er
The Window Shopper
3 positive signs to die for
The Lake Water Guy
Suggestions Welcomed type
Been There, Done That, But Not Boasting It
“Read full entry on my blog here”:http://www.mehtanirav.com/2009/11/01/avoid-these-customers-five-warning-signs-to-say-no-to-customers-plus-three-signs-to-die-for
Greg – great post. It really does take years of horrible client experiences to get it right and even then, you still make the wrong call for the wrong reasons.
Here’s our Fit Pitch process:
1. Gut check – 9 of 10 times, we knew what we were in for and closed the deal anyway – bad idea. Typically you can listen to your gut and tell if there is a potential fit within the first few conversations based on the elements you brought up in your post.
2. Are they are good fit for us? Does their company line up with our vision? Are they open to working with us over time to refine the design or is it just a project? Can we get passionate about the project?
3. Are we a good fit for them? Do our services, style and people fit with theirs needs and expectations?
It provides for a nice, quick yes or no and in most cases you are making the decision, not the client.
Great post – agreed on all points. We have learned these lessons the hard way as I am sure you have. It is amazing when a project (and yes, they tend to span 5-6 months) drags on for an extra 3-4 months, the amount of time our project managers have to continuously spend just to keep the project alive – that is time we never anticipated in our proposals, and it is often lost hours that are hard to recoup. We include some info in our contracts now that allows us to extend PM costs if the client causes projects to delay for long periods of time, but in reality – that is difficult to recoup, even if your contract has verbiage to support you.
While the current economy has seen us waiting longer than ever for clients to “pull the trigger”, we are still cautious to avoid the ones that seem “toxic” from the onset. I have to say, trusting my gut is my best tool, as well as really sitting down and asking myself, is this a good match for Fastspot, and can Fastspot really deliver on what the client needs or wants?
I think the even harder part in this process is once you have already gotten a “yes” and THEN the client reveals their unhealthy ways. While education and guidance can sometimes get them back on track, it’s a time suck for our team, and often results in projects running over budget just from the hand holding necessary. The pre-qual questionnaire is a great tool to weed out the people who would otherwise just waste your time with an unnecessary phone call, and thank you for sharing yours with the community.
I would also add that those clients we should have passed on but didn’t – they rarely turn into good referrals or references, which to me is the ultimate long term value in a client. Like Happy Cog, our business comes from word of mouth much more than RFP responses.
All of this makes the good clients that much sweeter, and we take extra good care of them, in hopes that they continue to work with us as well as send us all their good client friends.
Your comments are awesome, everyone. Keep them coming.
I’ll throw out one more. This is tempting. It’s the prospect with tons of money, but you know they are going to be a ‘challenge’. You take the gig anyway.
Often, a prospect with tons of money will expect you not only to design their website, but to make them coffee, come to their office every day, and build their Powerpoints for them. I may sound a bit sarcastic here, but I’m actually not too far off.
The thought of a lucrative deal may be tempting, and sometimes you my need to suck it up and take it for the cash. But, know going in that the expectation will be that they will be expect the world of you. This is especially important if you’re a small shop. They will call unannounced many times a day and expect you to be available for them. They can hyper-scrutinize every detail. They will demand specific people work on the gig. They will want timelines reduced, and they will even offer to pay you even more to throw more people at the project. The list goes on.
If you’re okay with that, take the job. Just see it coming.
Hi, Greg—Just found your fabulous article via a LinkedIn post by Julie McKown. Thought you might like to see the comment I added somewhat belatedly to the discussion:
Terrific article—thanks for posting!
I’d add that these points apply to any creative business, not just building Web sites.
In particular: “The Vanishing Boss:” Amen. Try to ensure that the person with ultimate decision-making capability will be at the first meeting. Nothing can halt or slow progress as much as presenting to people who lack the authority to give a final OK.
Greg is absolutely right: You can bet that there will be problems down the road if the key decision-maker isn’t there at the outset and kept in the loop.
Other great advice in your article that I didn’t point to in the post: Spending a bit of time to produce something especially for the final decision-maker—even if he or she isn’t present—will pay enormous dividends.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter. I’ve just started a new web design company. Aside from having two great clients I’ve also done freelance site programming for another designer in town. Not only did they refuse to work with anything other than simple table based layouts, but they also removed my ‘Site programming by’ line from the job I had just completed for them. Of course I had a look at the code, and low and behold, it was mine line-for-line. Another red flag was that this person only wanted to communicate via email. It’s very hard to effectively communicate that way and especially so when trying to review a project. As a result after just two jobs I decided to look for work elsewhere. In the end it simply wasn’t worth the headache and aggravation.
dealing with a client now that didn’t have a clear visionof what she wanted, didn’t fill out the questionaires, brought in her partner that didn’t like the first draft, changed several templates halfway through, and expects her site to be done in one month.
Sadly, even when you have been in the selling game for awhile (I’m in for 5 years), you find that with all your best efforts and methodology in place, a bad seed falls through the cracks and becomes the thorn in your side that you compare others to for some time to come. I’ve learned that sometimes it just isn’t worth it to continue a bad relationship with a client. While I have not had to walk away during a redesign/design project, there are a few that I would not work with again. The drain on time, resources, and our mental health is not worth it in the long run.
…and I think a pre-project questionnaire is a good idea. But I have to say that I think it should be delivered in person so that you can adequately explore any answers that surprise you. I also think that it’s a mistake to make this pre-project exploration too problem-focused. In my experience, many, many problems with web development projects come from problem areas that just would not be unearthed from a project-focussed review. In this article, I make a list of six areas that I think it’s worth exploring with a client before the start of a project – “Six things you really need to know about your customer”:http://www.agile-lab.co.uk/2009/06/six-things-you-really-need-to-know.html .
Small clients tend to be more flexible on accepting a “no” from the Project Manager for the sole reason is that usually they’re not sure of what they want, and they’re looking for advice.
On the other hand, large clients (usually) have a pretty good idea of what they want, and asking for more things along the road is very normal as their internal requirements change. Although these “changes should be controlled”:http://www.pmhut.com/how-to-control-change-requests , failing to control change requests will result in a scope creep.
I have people asking me why it takes 6 months (sometimes longer) to complete a website. I tell them that this is normal, because I am usually awaiting client feedback on a proof or other information. This can take a day to a week for a client response to come in. The person I talk with usually understands.
We need to think about our projects as game-like situations. What do I have to bring in – so that I can deal with the challenges of the project? Do I need help, and if I do, does it makes sense to ask for advice and support, given the actual time and budget limitations? How do I need to prepare myself for it? A realistic evaluation of your own resources helps: it makes you understand if the benefits of getting involved in a project balance out the eventual investititon required from your side and your client’s. If there is a balance that you are both happy with, or – then Yes or “getting to Yes” is the best option.
Otherwise “No” should be the permanent or temporary resolution to it. In the end, we all need to figure out how and why we should contribute to or work on something, and “No” is part of that process too.
Could not agree more with the second point. You know when you’re reading something and you’re instantly reminded of a quote? “A camel is a horse designed by a committee” – which then led me to: “too many cooks spoil the broth”. I think most people would agree that the fewer the number of people who need to be involved in a project, the better.
38 Reader Comments
Back to the Articleadamqureshi
I must say this is an excellent article, I started my company about a year ago and at this very moment we are pitching a prospect who could get us lots of work, because she is completely connected in the her field but the client worksheet is vague and so I’ve set up face to face and i will use the suggestions from greg hoy ! thanks you so much , !
Adam
traxor
I second what has been said previously: 5-6 months at the LEAST seems an awful long time for a project. Sure, a larger project would take that amount of time, but most projects wouldn’t taken any more than a month if you’re working full-time on it. By this I’m talking about the projects that one does for nurseries and photographers, for example, because with these you can only do a certain amount of information architecture, search engine optimisation and research.
Other than that I completely agree with what you’ve written and I’m sick of getting clients who think they can walk all over me. Unfortunately people don’t see this faceless person behind an email as anything more than a drone sometimes, so they think they can treat us poorly, then when or if we snap, they’re the ones that run off with their tails in between their legs, crying. Rest assured, I’ve never snapped but have been very close – it’s always better to bite your tongue and leave it.
There are plenty of articles like this around the web and my advice to anyone reading it is to seek those out too, on places like FreelanceFolder or FreelanceShack, that way you’ll get a better insight!
Greg Hoy
karlcow: Our project planner is readily available for download on the “Happy Cog”:http://www.happycog.com/contact/ site. Take a look.
Greg Hoy
Dave T: I agree. However, if you’re a smaller shop, I’d suggest steering clear of the RFPs if you can. A small firm’s chances with an RFP are slim. Even Happy Cog’s chances with an RFP are slim, despite our reputation.
So then comes the magic question – how do you get work?
My only advice here is to do good work for good people. Build the portfolio. Word will spread. Boring, I know, but that’s the best I can sum it up.
eljl
Great job on the article Greg. Reading through it made images of several clients I have worked with in the past flash into my head. The article gave me quite a bit to think about.
niravmehta
With my 11 years of web design / development, I couldn’t agree more with Greg’s list. I even added 3 more warning signs and 3 positives signs of prospects you should die for.
3 more warning signs
3 positive signs to die for
“Read full entry on my blog here”:http://www.mehtanirav.com/2009/11/01/avoid-these-customers-five-warning-signs-to-say-no-to-customers-plus-three-signs-to-die-for
barefootceo
Greg – great post. It really does take years of horrible client experiences to get it right and even then, you still make the wrong call for the wrong reasons.
Here’s our Fit Pitch process:
1. Gut check – 9 of 10 times, we knew what we were in for and closed the deal anyway – bad idea. Typically you can listen to your gut and tell if there is a potential fit within the first few conversations based on the elements you brought up in your post.
2. Are they are good fit for us? Does their company line up with our vision? Are they open to working with us over time to refine the design or is it just a project? Can we get passionate about the project?
3. Are we a good fit for them? Do our services, style and people fit with theirs needs and expectations?
It provides for a nice, quick yes or no and in most cases you are making the decision, not the client.
THalvorsen
Greg,
Great post – agreed on all points. We have learned these lessons the hard way as I am sure you have. It is amazing when a project (and yes, they tend to span 5-6 months) drags on for an extra 3-4 months, the amount of time our project managers have to continuously spend just to keep the project alive – that is time we never anticipated in our proposals, and it is often lost hours that are hard to recoup. We include some info in our contracts now that allows us to extend PM costs if the client causes projects to delay for long periods of time, but in reality – that is difficult to recoup, even if your contract has verbiage to support you.
While the current economy has seen us waiting longer than ever for clients to “pull the trigger”, we are still cautious to avoid the ones that seem “toxic” from the onset. I have to say, trusting my gut is my best tool, as well as really sitting down and asking myself, is this a good match for Fastspot, and can Fastspot really deliver on what the client needs or wants?
I think the even harder part in this process is once you have already gotten a “yes” and THEN the client reveals their unhealthy ways. While education and guidance can sometimes get them back on track, it’s a time suck for our team, and often results in projects running over budget just from the hand holding necessary. The pre-qual questionnaire is a great tool to weed out the people who would otherwise just waste your time with an unnecessary phone call, and thank you for sharing yours with the community.
I would also add that those clients we should have passed on but didn’t – they rarely turn into good referrals or references, which to me is the ultimate long term value in a client. Like Happy Cog, our business comes from word of mouth much more than RFP responses.
All of this makes the good clients that much sweeter, and we take extra good care of them, in hopes that they continue to work with us as well as send us all their good client friends.
Great post – thanks for sharing!
Greg Hoy
Your comments are awesome, everyone. Keep them coming.
I’ll throw out one more. This is tempting. It’s the prospect with tons of money, but you know they are going to be a ‘challenge’. You take the gig anyway.
Often, a prospect with tons of money will expect you not only to design their website, but to make them coffee, come to their office every day, and build their Powerpoints for them. I may sound a bit sarcastic here, but I’m actually not too far off.
The thought of a lucrative deal may be tempting, and sometimes you my need to suck it up and take it for the cash. But, know going in that the expectation will be that they will be expect the world of you. This is especially important if you’re a small shop. They will call unannounced many times a day and expect you to be available for them. They can hyper-scrutinize every detail. They will demand specific people work on the gig. They will want timelines reduced, and they will even offer to pay you even more to throw more people at the project. The list goes on.
If you’re okay with that, take the job. Just see it coming.
JoAnne
Hi, Greg—Just found your fabulous article via a LinkedIn post by Julie McKown. Thought you might like to see the comment I added somewhat belatedly to the discussion:
Terrific article—thanks for posting!
I’d add that these points apply to any creative business, not just building Web sites.
In particular: “The Vanishing Boss:” Amen. Try to ensure that the person with ultimate decision-making capability will be at the first meeting. Nothing can halt or slow progress as much as presenting to people who lack the authority to give a final OK.
Greg is absolutely right: You can bet that there will be problems down the road if the key decision-maker isn’t there at the outset and kept in the loop.
Other great advice in your article that I didn’t point to in the post: Spending a bit of time to produce something especially for the final decision-maker—even if he or she isn’t present—will pay enormous dividends.
Thanks, Greg!
crazywebfoo
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter. I’ve just started a new web design company. Aside from having two great clients I’ve also done freelance site programming for another designer in town. Not only did they refuse to work with anything other than simple table based layouts, but they also removed my ‘Site programming by’ line from the job I had just completed for them. Of course I had a look at the code, and low and behold, it was mine line-for-line. Another red flag was that this person only wanted to communicate via email. It’s very hard to effectively communicate that way and especially so when trying to review a project. As a result after just two jobs I decided to look for work elsewhere. In the end it simply wasn’t worth the headache and aggravation.
bsmbahamas
dealing with a client now that didn’t have a clear visionof what she wanted, didn’t fill out the questionaires, brought in her partner that didn’t like the first draft, changed several templates halfway through, and expects her site to be done in one month.
lot’s of lessons learned.
pamgreiner1
Well written and very true.
Sadly, even when you have been in the selling game for awhile (I’m in for 5 years), you find that with all your best efforts and methodology in place, a bad seed falls through the cracks and becomes the thorn in your side that you compare others to for some time to come. I’ve learned that sometimes it just isn’t worth it to continue a bad relationship with a client. While I have not had to walk away during a redesign/design project, there are a few that I would not work with again. The drain on time, resources, and our mental health is not worth it in the long run.
Thanks!
Mark_Stringer
…and I think a pre-project questionnaire is a good idea. But I have to say that I think it should be delivered in person so that you can adequately explore any answers that surprise you. I also think that it’s a mistake to make this pre-project exploration too problem-focused. In my experience, many, many problems with web development projects come from problem areas that just would not be unearthed from a project-focussed review. In this article, I make a list of six areas that I think it’s worth exploring with a client before the start of a project – “Six things you really need to know about your customer”:http://www.agile-lab.co.uk/2009/06/six-things-you-really-need-to-know.html .
projectmanagementhut
Small clients tend to be more flexible on accepting a “no” from the Project Manager for the sole reason is that usually they’re not sure of what they want, and they’re looking for advice.
On the other hand, large clients (usually) have a pretty good idea of what they want, and asking for more things along the road is very normal as their internal requirements change. Although these “changes should be controlled”:http://www.pmhut.com/how-to-control-change-requests , failing to control change requests will result in a scope creep.
adamant
I have people asking me why it takes 6 months (sometimes longer) to complete a website. I tell them that this is normal, because I am usually awaiting client feedback on a proof or other information. This can take a day to a week for a client response to come in. The person I talk with usually understands.
Catalina Butnaru
We need to think about our projects as game-like situations. What do I have to bring in – so that I can deal with the challenges of the project? Do I need help, and if I do, does it makes sense to ask for advice and support, given the actual time and budget limitations? How do I need to prepare myself for it? A realistic evaluation of your own resources helps: it makes you understand if the benefits of getting involved in a project balance out the eventual investititon required from your side and your client’s. If there is a balance that you are both happy with, or – then Yes or “getting to Yes” is the best option.
Otherwise “No” should be the permanent or temporary resolution to it. In the end, we all need to figure out how and why we should contribute to or work on something, and “No” is part of that process too.
thomasorourke
Could not agree more with the second point. You know when you’re reading something and you’re instantly reminded of a quote? “A camel is a horse designed by a committee” – which then led me to: “too many cooks spoil the broth”. I think most people would agree that the fewer the number of people who need to be involved in a project, the better.