Hybrid CSS Dropdowns

by Eric Shepherd

110 Reader Comments

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  1. The CSS menus I’ve seen, when used with a keyboard, display the top-level nav and one of the sublevels. That creates one issue – you’re presenting less information to a keyboard user than a mouse user. Yes, it’s somewhat functional, but it’s far from desirable.

    The slightly more significant issue is that in most cases (not all), as you tab through links, you will tab through ALL links, in order – even the ones buried in submenus that you can’t see. So you may tab to a link, get a visual indication of where you are, then hit tab, and you’re lost. You see no sign of what you just tabbed to. Hit tab again, same thing. 5 or 6 tabs later (assuming you haven’t given up and left the page already), and you pop back onto the screen at the next top-level menu item. And then you’re gone again.

    Accessibility is not just about “does it work?”, it’s also about “does it work well?” Unfortunately, I haven’t seen CSS menus that work well, yet.

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  2. OK…so, as long as the selected subnav is being displayed, the user doesn’t get the hover benefit to access all the options, but isn’t prevented from getting to any of them. I will start thinking about scripting solutions to get around this. Maybe an activation of a subnav with a focus event?

    Are tabs supposed to cycle through items set to display:none per spec? This seems to me to be a browser issue. Does anyone know what the behavior “should” be for subnav items?

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  3. Just to clear one thing out – the prior art wording you used urged me to re-read my post and realize it can be understood wrongly.

    I’m not accusing you of taking-over the code Alex and I did and then publishing as yours. I believe that you have never seen it, which is the biggest shame at all, as you could save time on initial development and solve the remaning problems. I simply mentioned that this is not new and “new” is something I expect from ALA article.

    Or at least expect to solve the resizing/overlapping problem you mention yourself. That would be cream of the cream.

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  4. I didn’t actually take your post that way; I apologize if I was a bit defensive :) Your subject line initially was a little provocative.

    My response was only meant to point out that your example has some serious problems – nav options should not ever just vanish with a little text-resizing, and this example does not have this issue because of the image-based main nav. Neither is perfect.

    WHAT IS NEW?

    As far as ALA and “new”, that’s up to the editors. Part of this issue, as I said, is a publishing schedule – ideas don’t go from experimentation/blog entry to article to published overnight. Another angle, I assume, is the desire of ALA to communicate ideas to those beyond the world of lists like css-discuss.

    I “invented” faux columns (along with probably many other people) well over a year before Dan’s article, but I didn’t write an article, and the web community as a whole hadn’t implemented the idea yet, so an article was a productive addition to ALA.

    SITE DOWN….

    Finally, TextDrive is having problems, and my site is down today; if anyone has tried to send email, sorry about the bounce and please try again later.

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  5. Once I started thinking about this problem again, once natural solution for main item wrap comes to mind: define menu width in ems too.
    If the text size is enlarged, the menu itself will enlarge and all happy (I updated the example on my site to show this).

    Every solution has weak spots. For this one: small screen size and large fonts will yield horizontal scrollbar. Which is not a problem but an annoyance. On the second glance – I have yet to see a person using 800×600 and Largest text-size setting.

    I usually enlarge text size when I’m using large resolutions on small screens, like 1400×1024 on my Dell 15” laptop. In this scenario, this works like a charm.

    If you have a pixel-set graphic design, then this will lead to menu going outside the right edge. Another thing can be tried then – setting min-height to a value that would accomodate at least two rows of text. It depends on layout in question really. and good layout that should take into account issues like this.

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  6. Dustin:

    I think you missed a very important part of my post: this is a closed environment (school computer labs) with old computers. There are no browsers to upgrade to! IE5 is the most recent browser that will run on those machines. The sad thing is, you’ll find this in many K-12 schools throughout the country. It’s one area where it’s not always possible to simply “upgrade the browsers.”

    Also, if you look back at my initial post, you’l see I linked to a list based CSS solution that DOES work in all browsers, even IE5/Mac, so my point is: if it’s worth doing, why not do it right? (No offense to the author…it’s a fine article, and a good learning tool.)

    It is possible to get this functionality that is truly cross browser, and that degrades very well for really old (4.x and older) browsers, works on cell phones and PDA’s, etc. So, I think it’s a bit too convenient to simply say “just upgrade your browser.” Some people can’t. It’s that simple. I think it’s safe to say the overwhelming majority of those who visit this site are designers/developers of some sort. We tend to be on the cutting edge, and will always have the latest technologies. If you look at the browser stats for this site, you probably won’t see many oder browsers. But, what if youre site has educational value? You should make sure, then, that it can be used by the target audience, which in this case would tend to have older browsers (if we’re talking K-12). If not, sure you can just ignore v5.x browsers. But, if it’s very much possible for this (and most) designs/tools to work in v5.x, why not just do it?

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  7. I have heard, the difficulty with something like this is how precise your movements have to be to navigate the second line. We utilize a very similar navigation system for our University websites, albeit yet another implementation. http://www.unl.edu/webdevnet/

    In the example there’s plenty of padding to make it more forgiving, but on sites that have many many links the padding has to be reduced – making it difficult for people to get to the line 2 links. Adding to the problem is that you must remain hovered over the second region to show the links. If the user slips off the second nav line, all is lost.
    The CSS example is great, but with a little javascript settimeouts and careful planning – we could really have a nice compliant version of Macromedia’s (Flash) navigation system.

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  8. Just downloaded and installed Opera 8 build 7522 for windows and the Hybrid CSS Dropdowns works like a charm now.

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  9. If anyone tried to contact me directly or visit my site; things are back up now and email shouldn’t bounce back. A scary outage at theplanet; 12 hours or something like that, caused by a blown fuse…

    Thanks for the Opera 8 update; I’m glad it was a transient bug.

    And I like the use of timeouts for the menu system at UNL, Brett. Very nice addition.

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  10. Cool menu, works just fine in Firefox, but bugs in IE6 and the tabs doesn’t show at all in Opera 8 Beta

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  11. Thanks for new and useful tabs – I’ve been looking for similar one for a long time now and I also tried to create something similar, however, without any proper results.

    Thanks!

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  12. “I’ll take pixel-precise absolute sizes anytime.”

    As the designer that is your choice, some of your users won’t thank you for it, mind.

    Why the obsession with dropdowns? Go on, force your users to follow precise cursor paths to their chosen link or risk triggering a neighbouring set of options and frustrate ‘em.

    But I enjoyed the read and discussion – as always!

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  13. Is that if the user doesn’t follow the precise path and can’t handle the dropdown, it doesn’t keep him from the information; I think that was said early on in the article.

    The obsession with dropdowns is that they provide quick access to many pages without having to click through a set of interim pages. For users that know where they want to go, this is a useability benefit.

    For those that don’t, this type of menu still allows them to access everything, unlike traditional dropdowns where all the options remain hidden in the menu unless hovered.

    Based on the several really nice implementations of similar menus that have been posted on this discussion board, it seems that others have found this idea, in various forms from Flash to CSS-based, to be beneficial.

    One’s frustration is perhaps anothers’ benefit. I guess that’s the crux of any of these disucssions. Nobody’s saying that any one technique is right for every website. As a user with manual dexterity and a knowledge of what I want, dropdowns are beneficial to me.

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  14. Hi
    This article is really nice and everything works perfectly – except in ie6: the submenu (.old ul, .off ul) has an offset of some pixels in the final css example (hybrid-4.html). Can it be a problem with: padding-left: 60px?

    But we all now how to fix this ;-)

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  15. I don’t see how that is much of an improvement.I was especially put off by the way it uses block and none for display, a technique that is known for a long time now to be an accessibility issue and was published here [1].

    This solution still has the same problem as any CSS nav solution:

    1) It is not keyboard enabled – Visitors might have to tab through a lot of invisible links to get where they want (mentioned in one message before this one already)
    2) It still is a matter of “sitemap as navigation”. Why do I need all links to every page in the site on every page? For the high end user, that is fine, but for people who have problems with too many links (switch/keyboard access, screen reader) it is just annoying. Hiding things doesn’t remove them. [2]

    A really helpful hybrid navigation would only add the second layers when the user has scripting enabled and uses a mouse – or has chosen to get them. This is perfectly possible with CSS and JavaScript, the only problem is the maintenance in the markup and the script, but that is something that can be maintained in the backend, too (a PHP script writing out the HTML and the JS depending on how it is embedded).

    Back in the days when we started playing with DHTML we did it completely wrong by making the whole navigation dependent on JavaScript, maybe it is time to make JavaScript work for us and only add the extra bits for those who can use them and want them.


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  16. Can this type of menu be navigated by keyboard users (i.e. people who cannot use a mouse… for example, people who use screenreaders)?

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  17. > Visitors might have to tab through a lot of invisible links

    Isn’t that the whole point of the “Skip to content” link that is quite common?

    Although I agree that CSS display properties can open up accessibility issues, isn’t the real source of the problem screen readers attempting to render a screen stylesheet is if it was aural? If that’s the case, it would seem like the easiest solution is to create a stylesheet just for screen readers and provide a link to that stylesheet right at the top of the page. That way the special screen reader CSS could be activated by the visitor (and carried throughout their visit, by cookies).

    I really like sub-nav, at least on bigger, commerce based sites that get quite deep with navigation. I don’t think arguing against the usage of nested navigation really holds water if one is arguing accessibility. These issues can be worked around without dropping the nested navigation altogether.

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  18. I think that it represents an elegant solution. It even sort of mimics the Flash menus that use this UI meme (Macromedia.com)

    I had also tried working on something much like this but never could seem to get the hover to work correctly so I left it static.

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  19. Justin: How could you work around these issues with skip links?
    First of all the navigation is one entity, so you’d need to put a skip link before every nested list to skip it.
    Secondly screen readers also offer a list of links in the document to navigate directly, and the links will show up there.
    Even when you can navigate them, it is just really annoying to get all that information that just is not needed to navigate the site.
    I agree that nested navigations can be a handy shortcut, but they should only appear when you can use them.
    The flaw of screen readers trying to render visual stylesheets is bad, but I guess it was needed to make them usable UAs for browsing, much like browsers do render invalid HTML, whereas they should not.
    It does not matter how the CSS is when the HTML/content is just too much. You don’t print the index of a book on every page, you print it at the end or at the beginning.

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  20. By this analogy, each page in a website would have a link to only two other pages and a site map.

    I understand what you’re saying, but the whole point of the web is that we can jump to many places from one place. I agree, the scale can become unworkable, and will be a problem with large lists until screenreaders and the like get smarter, but I’m not satisfied with a comparison of the web and a book.

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  21. And it is matter of judgement how many links are bearable and how many are just too much. What is the important bit of the web page? Its content or how many more are available in the whole site? Do we want to help the visitors to find what they came for or do we want to offer them everything at once?
    I never claimed web sites should be like books and we should only have links to the next, last page and the sitemap I just compared offering all links on a page to printing the index of a catalogue on each page. We offer too many options where they are possibly wanted but not needed.
    Nested navigations are an extra offer to avoid a page load and a drilldown in the navigation.
    It is for us to ponder if they are worth it when they can be a bother to use for some.
    The visitors benefiting from the shortcut are the high end users with our CSS available and able to see the showing and hiding and navigating via a mouse – if we use CSS only (with JavaScript you can create navigations that can be enabled by keyboard, too).
    The other visitors will see the whole navigation at once, which can be far too much information.
    The logical step would be to only offer the extra information to those who want it and not assume that everybody does benefit from it.

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  22. Who are these “high end users, with CSS enabled” you speak of Chris?

    I don’t see how you can shrug off the typical visitor, with CSS on (of course) and Javascript enabled (I think less than 2% have Javascript turned off) as a high end user who isn’t worthy of sub-menu navigation.

    What you’re suggesting (adding sub-nav dynamically) seems to be putting far too much reliance on client-side scripting when your end result is something that 90% of the visiting population (or so) can take advantage of.

    Couldn’t I just as easily put a link right in the top of my document which when clicked will load my site, but without the sub-nav? Or (as I tried to explain earlier), just add another stylesheet that hides the sub-nav from all?

    I don’t know, seems like a draw I guess. We could probably argue the advantages/disadvantages of each method to no end.

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  23. I had this kind of menu going for a long time at my company. I eventually changed it to be a traditional drop-down. While the hybrid here does give great clues to navigation, there are also a few major drawbacks that take away more than they add in my opinion.

    The worst problem is the mouse space. When you want to change a section, you mouse over it, move down, then move across to the item you want on a thin line, being careful not to go outside the line. If you lose the line, you have to go back and start all over. Traditional drop-downs don’t make you change direction while navigating, you just drop right down to your item. Plus there is lots more room horizontally with normal drop-downs than vertically with hybrids because you’re not trying to stay within just one line. This makes navigation MUCH easier and not so much an exercise in mouse accuracy.

    Next is that since it is horizontal, there is a limited quantity of submenu items that can be put on it without rolling over to the next line. Usually these kind of things are kept on one so you don’t get blank space from one carry-over and because it’s more difficult to tell that these are sub-items when they’re in a big jumble. So the one line limits you.

    Also with the one line, if your right-most tab only has one or two sub-items, you run into problems. You can’t position the list all the way to the left because it will look like the sub-items are part of some other tab or no tab at all. (unless you use a high-contrast tab structure like the example) You also can’t position the left-most sub-item with the left of the selected main item because it will quickly run off the right side of the page. And it becomes a bit tricky to align the main and sub-items to the right, plus it messes up the first item.

    Last is the obvious two-level limit in navigation. This limits both ways. If you want to have a menu item with no sub-items then you’ll have to have a blank line or it will jump down when you roll over another item. This looks weird to have a blank line because you wonder why it’s there. On the other hand, you can’t go more than two deep. Otherwise you’d have to either do traditional drop-downs afterward (weird) or continue the lines down and down (even weirder) or lay the lines across the whole page over top of the current page as you dig deeper and deeper. (which hides the page)

    As you can see, all these things eventually added up to the return of traditional drop-downs.

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  24. The “typical visitor” who I called the “high end visitor” has JavaScript enabled and our CSS for display. These are the only ones that can use a dynamic navigation (JS is needed to ensure keyboard access as most browsers don’t support :focus), right?
    That is why my stance is to make it available to them but not force it on the others.

    Let’s check the facts.
    – All levels of navigation on each page are not a need, they are a shortcut – a “nice to have”.
    – Users without either JS or CSS or both will get a lot of links they don’t need.
    – We cannot rely on Javascript being available (it is not in high security areas like financial institutions for example), but we can test if it is available.
    – We cannot rely on CSS to get rid of the unnecessary links as visual hiding is not removing them from the document.

    Therefore the most usable and unobtrusive way is to:

    - Give the visitor the bare minimum of navigation and an option to have an “extended navigation” – an option that can be stored in a profile or a cookie for the next visit.

    Or if that is an unwanted step:

    - Give the visitor the bare minimum and expand it only when JavaScript is available.

    The latter option would mean no difference in the site experience, but is more flexible.

    It is the same logic we applied when we moved screen furniture from image elements to the CSS.

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  25. i use a div like someone else wrote that will position my whole site. Now the navigation will work in Firefox but in IE6 it will not allow me time to select a subnav. The thing has to do with position:absolute but is there a way to fix this problem? i really need this… cause 12 hours of transparancy in IE hack and now this i cant handle this anymore:S

    well ill hear… maybe

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  26. Before everyone praises this approach it should be clear that such menus imply more or less severe usability problems especially for elderly users or users with motor problems.

    Personally and apart from this, I liked some ideas presented in the article.

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  27. Hybrid CSS Dropdowns…  loox really bad in Safaribrowser..  Pity…  GREAT STUFF though!

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  28. >loox really bad in Safaribrowser..

    Loox really good in 3 versions of Safaribrowser ALA tested it in or ALA not have pubbblished it.

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  29. This is an interesting read. I only wish it had been published earlier – a client of mine was after something similar with their site!

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  30. Looks good in “standard/default” mode but when
    I ctrl+ in Firefox 1.0.2 to increase the font
    size, only the sec-nav change, the tabs don’t.
      :(  Same for ctrl to shrink the font.

    After 4 ctrl+ the sec-nav starts to wrap and
    the bottom half of the words are cropped.  :-(

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  31. All I get is the image, without the menu.  It works in Navigator for the Mac….

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  32. Why doesn’t anyone use the function getElementsByTagName()?

    It’s much more elegant than using a for loop to iterate through each of an element’s children to find all of one type of tag.

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  33. Does anyone actually USE that browser any more? As in, anyone who matters?

    I’m a firm believer in discarding broken or out of date browsers from my support roster, since most users of Netscape 4.x and IE Mac will be pretty much used to dealing with pages that break on their browsers anyway.

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  34. I was looking for a way to make pulldown menus without browser detection, because clean xhtml/css was supposed to get rid of browser detection scripts. Of course IE not supporting the hover function for anything besides ‘A’ makes this hard, but I keep hoping for a different solution.

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  35. when i view the menu in the opera, the last menu item jiggles ‘n wiggels!?

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  36. I tried to view this on IE 5.1 for Mac and it doesn’t work. Should it work?

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  37. I did one, but i guess that this version showed have a little trick

    check this one…

    i built using some advices from a list apart.

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  38. Check this out…

    http://www.meucarronovo.com.br

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  39. I’ve noticed the IE6 offset issue as well.  I made a menu and once I check it with IE6, I had the same problem as the example at the end of this tutorial.  Is there a fix for this IE6 bug?  It’s kind of frustrating spending the time to follow a tutorial and then realizing that it won’t work in IE…

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  40. Just an FYI

    using Safari 1.0.3(v85.8.1) [via 10.2.8, Old School I know…] having a couple issues:

    • am seeing each main menu name, below the related submenu items, indented, half line below (obscurring submenu text).
    • Under the Modern tab (orange), the hover of submenu items displays the main menu background (blue bg with clipped-corner) in the submenu, and changes the text color to orange (instead of blue).
    • Rolling between main tabs is inconsistent.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

    Something strange is afoot at the Circle-K

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  41. another FYI

    On my system, the submenu at arkitrave.com does not work totally either.

    Submenu is always stacked on left edge below Home tab.  And not clickable, as it disappears when I come off the tabs.

    Not a CSS-guru by any means—just here to learn.  I don’t think my Safari config is altered beyond stock.

    But maybe it is just my system…

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  42. I built the site well over a year ago, and the dropdowns have nothing to do with this article. They work like a charm in everything except Safari, and I’ve never figured out whether it’s my bad coding or Safari that causes them to break in Safari. I am aware of the problem. Know that it is a different set of code, as the current article works fine in the Safari that I tested in. I’m not sure what the problem is for the older version in 10.2.8.

    Maybe I will go back to JavaScript rollovers :)

    No, seriously, thanks for all the observations from different versions; it is impossible to test for all of these browsers and OSs. I do pretty well with my local PC/Mac Intranet and 9 or so browsers, but it’s all under Win2K or OS10.3.

    I have on my list to fix the indentation problem in IE6 – I don’t yet know what’s causing that and I’ll post something to my site when I figure it out. That said, don’t hold your collective breath, as I’ve got a busy spring coming up.

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  43. Excelente artículo … justo lo que buscaba

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  44. Hi Eric—Sorry to divert focus to your site… given it’s different code and older. (should have read every response prior to mentioning it)

    Thanks for an outstanding article!!  Was not trying to be a pain-in-the-rear… only trying to explain the issue with 10.2.8 specifically.

    popartpopeye mentioned on page 7 (in not a very helpful way) that his Safari wasn’t working properly.  If he was having the same issues as I—thought you could use some more info about specifics.

    Keep up the great work though!

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  45. I’ve implemented the menu on an elastic site with two main problems. 1) (I think everyone has already discovered) My main-level links wrap, but they are then hidden by the “on” sub-nav that is positioned directly below line 1 of the main-nav. Any way around this? (he asks, expecting silence).

    And 2). Because the site is elastic, the sub-nav width needs to be set to 100%. But in IE, when the width is set to 100%, the sub-nav li’s all appear one vertically on top of the other. The only way to render them horizontally is to specify the width of the ul in either em’s or px’s. Anyone know of a way around this?

    NOTE: The implementation is located at the linked site (which is hosted on my computer and may or may not be online). The site is essentially a personal experiment in xml from start to finish. Pay no mind to the content. ;-)

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  46. Looking at the final menus in Firefox and IE6 side-by-side reveals that they don’t quite display the same. For example, in Firefox, the header image and menus are flush left. However, in Opera and IE6, this is on a Linux system, the menus start with a space between the left side of the browser window and the edge of the menu instead of flush with the leftside browser window as is the case with Firefox. Is there a way to compensate for this behavior without trashing the display in Firefox? The more I learn about web development the more I loathe Microsoft and IE.

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  47. Someone know a menu like this?
    Option1   |  Option2   |  Option3
              option2.1
              option2.2
              option2.3—>option2.3.1
              option2.4 >option2.3.2


    The current no have option2.3.1

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  48. In my opinion, CSS has not yet reached a stage where it can gracefully handle complex behavior like nested drop-down menus.

    This is most evident in the example if you hover over the right-most parent (“Digital”) and then quickly move to the left-most child (“Xenakis”).  If you can do this quickly without losing the “Digital” menu items, then you’re more dextrous than the vast majority of mouse-users.

    The CSS :hover pseudo-class simply has no tolerance on most browsers for any accidental mouse jittering.  It would be nice if it could be specified with a given timeout, for example “ul:hover(5)”, but alas, that is not available – and perhaps it shouldn’t be.  The purpose of this pseudo-class is to simply highlight an item when it is clickable, not to provide complicated behavioral scripting capabilities.  CSS is a brilliant language for style, but every “CSS Behavior” hack that I see just seems to be a stretch for no purpose other than showing off what is possible.

    (Granted, that’s a fine purpose and something that should be done in the name of innovation, but it’s not a good methodology for creating accessible and profitable websites!)

    A javascript solution, otoh, can easily be created that will use exactly the same degradible XHTML and similar CSS styling.  In this way, you can allow your users to hover or click a parent, and don’t change it until they hover/click another parent.  This is the default application behavior that most users are used to, and it is more forgiving of often imperfect mouse movements.

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  49. Doesn’t degrade either. All you see is the top photo.

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  50. who knows.
    It seems I am having problems not with flash
    but with multiple lines of drop downs.

    ————————————————
    drop down1 drop down2 drop down 3
    ————————————————
    ————————————————
    drop down4 drop down5 drop down 6
    ————————————————

    the list hides behind the <ul> heading below it. is this just a z-index or how the flop am
    I supposed to get it to work.  any ideas??

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  51. v1…

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  52. its based on pixles, but even worse it cannot be zoomed. Thats just crap, nothing else.

    Dropdownmenus in general are a problem, better use asyncronic server connections (ajax) and refresh menus statically, if you mess around with javascript anyway.

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  53. Sorry, but this menu isn’t working on IE 5.2 Mac. It is working in Safari.

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  54. What if your menu is centered on a page?  How the heck are you supposed to position the sub-navs since this example is crippled by using actual pixels?

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  55. “This technique is a bulletproof way to ensure browser compatibility and to maintain usability”.
    I believe the above sentance should be removed from the article; because IMHO this solution has serious issues:
    – poor browser support,
    – text is not scalable,
    – list items are not accessible in IE when JS is disabled,
    – and, AFAIK, tabbing navigation is not possible in any browser.

    Months ago, I have published a solution, trying to address each problem:
    http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp

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  56. I belive my own take on a pure css menu have better usability than this one. No javascript, just css (except for the virtual pagechange, just for the demo) Take a look at:

    http://derkert.com/ip3/menu/

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  57. As a student I apreciate very much. Send more, please.

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  58. I tried this and it works very well except the subnavi which disappers immediately when I move the cursor away from a tab. So I can’t access the subnavi at all! Do you have a solution for this? Thanks!

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  59. I’m still searching for a CSS solution that is compatible accross all (most) OS platforms and browsers. I liked the look of your menu, but when I tried it on OS-X and IE, I get no menus at all!

    Mac OS 10.3.9 (Apple’s most current), and Internet Explorer for Rel. 5.2.3 (MS’s most current and final version)

    Anyone else have this problem?

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  60. The example at http://www.alistapart.com/d/hybrid/hybrid-4.html doesn’t look good after I increased text size in Firefox (Ctrl++) several times.

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  61. Your menu behaves badly in Firefox when I increase text size (Ctrl++). Menu items disappear, extraneous lines appear, etc..

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  62. Hi Roman,
    Re: my menu (http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp)
    AFAIK, it is possible to use “Ctrl+” three times in FireFox without breaking the layout; this corresponds to more than the “largest” text-size in MSIE.
    In any case, I believe it is much better than what the “Hybrid CSS Dropdowns” menu allows ;-)

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  63. Probably one of the best css solutions I have seen yet.  I love ALA!

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  64. The problem with CSS menus is that navigation is very important and problems with like the flashing effect, cross-browser issues, etc. make it less than ideal.

    Another problem I have with CSS only menus is that it tries to do behaviour in CSS for which CSS was not designed. CSS should IMO be presentation only.

    Also with XHTML markup, CSS styled but Javascript powered navigation you can do some eye candy like the menus I did for my MXR CMS product. see http://mxdemo.infireal.com/ (P.S: the markup is terrible, its on the todo list)
    The menu does a roll-up and fade out effect.

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  65. I’m having a problem implementing a list in FireFox.  When I added the style info into my stylesheet, all of a sudden FireFox stopped recognizing all of the stylesheet from that point down.  I can’t figure out what’s causing this problem.  IE can still parse the entire stylesheet, displaying the list properly.  (The list is taken from the ALA 2002 article Taming Lists by the way.)

    Any suggestions?  Thanks!

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  66. I was just checking out the linked examples and they look fine in Safari, but totally not working in Explorer??

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  67. Sorry for a little off-topic, but I’m struggling with one thing, which maybe you know how to solve

    I want a very simple horizontal menu, based on list

    I’ve done it, but I wanted it to have a custom bullet, so I used list-style: url(/image.gif); in the ul style declaration

    it appeared ok in mozilla, but there is NO image neither in opera nor IE.

    well, if I change the image to just ‘circle’ or ‘square’ it does not appear in those browsers anyway

    Is it possible to to have bullets (custom too) in horizontal menu based on ul ?
    it’s easy to make it in vertical on, but I have not found any example of such menu turned to horizontal…

    thanks

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  68. I am in the process of setting this up and I can’t get it to center on the page like the rest of my page does. I have a container div around my whole page with margin-left and margin-right set to auto, but the secondary nav is always left aligned. Anyone know a remedy?

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  69. I like this example… :)  what is to say..

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  70. I was working several mothes ago on a similar NAV on a client site http://www.cfatb.com/ using extensively the sluckerfish inspiration.

    I enhanced it to fit our requisites and it seems that it works good on many major browsers. Of course the CSS is free to use as well as the HTML code itself. I think I made some mistakes but it works pretty well.

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