Good point, John. Well-taken. I should have probably taken that side of the argument deeper. It’s necessary for any level of experience to continually grow and explore new things. I believe the alternative to constant learning is called retirement.
I agree that salary should not be discussed among coworkers unless you are really confident that you can handle it tactfully. And no matter what, it should not be part of salary negotiation. The information can be utilized to set salary expectations though.
As for the discussions of pay between full-time employees, whether or not to do it depends to a very large degree on the culture of the organization and of the surrounding society. While it’s probably seen as a bad thing in the US (one would expect that given the general competitive culture) or in the UK (where something else is behind it, I believe) it’s quite different in a place like Denmark. Coming from the latter place and working in the UK now I had the chance to experience that.
From a personal viewpoint I’d have to say that advising against discussing salaries is wrong. You should advise to be wise about it instead. It’s also rather interesting that you’re only judging this thing from the managers perspective. Sure you’ll have negative experiences from the viewpoint, but did you stop to think that maybe there were other problems behind this? As an example, if you pay two people different salaries for the same job, don’t you think one of them might start getting a little negative if they find out? Your solution to this – make sure they don’t share the information – is not very intelligent. On the contrary, people tend to be very understanding once they know that a) they’re being treated fairly and b) they have all the info regarding the situation.
The subject of salary seems to be a hot one, and I’d like to clarify a few things.
I approached this topic from a manager’s perspective, but it would be silly to think that I’m only aware of that singular view. I think discussing your personal information should be handled with delicacy and tact. (Thanks, abhi G).
Fake: Your quote about that being an unintelligent solution isn’t true. The majority of your negotiating power in salary situations is having information that the director or hiring manager doesn’t. How would you fare if you were to walk into a freelance opportunity and immediately state that you make “100 whatevers” per hour? What if they would have paid more?
As to your other comment about two people making different salaries for the same job, there are many, many reasons for that to occur in the first place (lack or existence of a specialized degree, extra training, years of experience, etc…). Yes. I do think that they’d be upset. Hence my argument.
People are very understanding when you communicate; regardless of the information – good or bad. It’s up to the manager to explain to you why a situation is happening. If they’re not honest or upfront, then you’ve got many more issues than just “Why does Sally make more than Jane?”.
My advice to not share salary information is a general rule that I believe applies to at least 90% of the situations out there. If you disagree, fantastic. I like seeing both sides of the argument and I appreciate the comments.
I’ll start by saying what I should have stated earlier: nice and interesting article, it was a good read. Thanks.
Quote:
The majority of your negotiating power in salary situations is having information that the director or hiring manager doesn’t. How would you fare if you were to walk into a freelance opportunity and immediately state that you make “100 whatevers”? per hour? What if they would have paid more?
Your point was about sharing information between coworkers, not about holding your tongue when you’re in a job-interview. Unless I read you wrong.
Quote:
People are very understanding when you communicate; regardless of the information — good or bad. It’s up to the manager to explain to you why a situation is happening. If they’re not honest or upfront, then you’ve got many more issues than just “Why does Sally make more than Jane?”?.
That is exactly my point. In the situation of two coworkers being paid differently for the same job, you’re arguing it’s better to avoid the situation by having a corporate culture of “don’t share salary information”. I’m saying let people know why they’re being treated differently instead of trying to hide it. After all, you’re implicitly arguing that there’s a good reason for the difference in treatment so why assume that the workers cannot see the reasoning?
I would say that maybe your rule of thumb applies in the US 90% of the time but it certainly doesn’t everywhere. Which is not saying that you’re wrong, just that corporate culture accounts for a lot.
Your point was about sharing information between coworkers, not about holding your tongue when you’re in a job-interview. Unless I read you wrong.
You read it right. After I pressed submit I realized that I should have put “this is just an example of sharing or not sharing information”. Thank you for addressing it.
I would say that maybe your rule of thumb applies in the US 90% of the time but it certainly doesn’t everywhere. Which is not saying that you’re wrong, just that corporate culture accounts for a lot.
Sure thing. I spent two years working internationally in both Amsterdam and London and while you are completely correct that corporate culture should dictate the situation, I can only speak from both my experience and my training. Comments from people like yourself help fulfill the obligation to paint the entire picture.
This a fantastic argument to follow and I hope other managers can both relate and understand how this subject (and honesty in general?) can help or hurt a situation.
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Pepi Ronalds
Nice article Keith.
Further to what John K wrote… it’s not only versatility but also learning new skills which may result in a promotion (and larger increase) further down the line. Be careful not to overlook opportunities.
For example you may have expressed an interest to your employer that you’d like to learn project management skills. If your employer supports you in this they may take a variety of strategies, perhaps getting you to be the client contact while the lead PM is on vacation, maybe even giving you a small internal project – better yet, you may be asked to lead a larger project of your own.
As John writes, showing willingness is invaluable. So if given these opportunities be careful not to ‘bite the hand that feeds’ by demanding a review straight away (or, as I have seen happen, refusing to take on the seemingly less glamorous tasks like being asked to manage the client liaison while the PM is on vacation). It’s easy to forget that often employers are taking a risk in giving people opportunities to learn more skills.
Thanks for yet another great article. This article was especially useful to me as I’m starting my freelance career and I am also trying to land an in-house position. It’s valuable advice for both worlds.
It’s easy to forget that often employers are taking a risk in giving people opportunities to learn more skills.
Well said, especially as they won’t know immediately how you’ll handle it.
I think it’s also important to take stock of where you want to go with your career. Looking to the future is important and, while adding to your expertise is always a good thing, looking toward the "mountain" while treading the path.
I can relate to this article completely. I asked this question ” Why was I hired?” on the 3rd day of my new job! (This is a brand company boasting to be one of the top in its industry.) The option to quit at that time was quite a risk since I moved to new city for the job and its a BIG brand!..the only option was to stick around, and
1> talk to the management and HR about the problems I preempted / foresaw,
2> try to educate the existing team about the new practices that were followed in the industry which will eventually help them in their business.
3> take it as a learning experience, be open minded to accept their reasoning behind their way of working
4> and lastly, improve my patience and tolerance levels
For 6 months, I did all of the above to stay on and get adjusted. But nothing really worked :(. Whenever I spoke of standards, I was ridiculed, whenever I asked for a process, I was given shocked looks, Web 2.0 became a graphic design trend but nobody knew what it actually was, quality checks is a term not heard of here. There was a little loss of millions, but thats ok in the beginning as its a investment period. In short I was in a BIG mess, stuck in a job I didn’t want to be a part of.
Things are different when you in the hierarchy lower than the middle management. And its worse when there are no meetings, no team alloted (though designation talks about it)and no senior to report to (hes always very busy! to hear you out). You cant bring in the change you want so easily, as you have to tackle people below you as well as the levels above you. There are very few people like you here and there, which you identify over the period of time.
Its then you realize, that before bringing in the change you want for the company’s betterment, you need to change yourself. Become one of them, abandon your thoughts and principles. Follow their methodology, in spite of knowing thats its wrong. Then start slow bringing in small changes. Get a course on EQ done. Sharpen your soft skills. You would see changes in a small way..but there is no guarantee that over the time there would be a drastic one.
Till then be patient and wait for the skies to clear. Thats the mantra shared by the HR head too:)
Apart from this I’m also keeping my eyes open for a good job that gives work satisfaction and the good money to run my house. The only things that keep me off from putting in my papers right away (that thought comes almost every alternate day!)is the money and the hope that someday things might change a little more.:)
You describe a situation that happens to many, many people and is the underlying impetus for my piece. People make decisions based on either the perception or reality of a job that they feel fits both their financial and career goals only to find out that the world they know is about to be rocked hard by slow or uninformed practices.
To increase the severity of the situation, you add in that you’ve moved to a new city and are now in a new life; not an easy situation.
The good news is that if you’ve kept your nose clean and have “anything” to point to for work as a reference, the name of the “BIG” brand should help you.
The single most important issue when starting a new job (whether internal or freelance) might be establishing expectations up front. A list of granular bullet points isn’t necessary, but a few clearly-defined milestones can avoid the minefield of unmet expectations for both parties.
As for the topic of pay, if it’s handled with humility and propriety, why the big secret. It’s a mind game prospective employers play with job candidates and then we perpetuate once employed. Handled properly by a savvy employer it could be used to great effect in establishing and directly reinforcing my other point: expectations.
All else being equal, if Person A makes more than Person B, shouldn’t it be based on a transparent set of standards for skills, experience, and performance rather something as arbitrary as negotiating skills?
25 Reader Comments
Back to the ArticleKeith LaFerriere
Good point, John. Well-taken. I should have probably taken that side of the argument deeper. It’s necessary for any level of experience to continually grow and explore new things. I believe the alternative to constant learning is called retirement.
amber simmons
Actually, I believe that’s called death.
abhi G
I agree that salary should not be discussed among coworkers unless you are really confident that you can handle it tactfully. And no matter what, it should not be part of salary negotiation. The information can be utilized to set salary expectations though.
Fake Fiftyone
As for the discussions of pay between full-time employees, whether or not to do it depends to a very large degree on the culture of the organization and of the surrounding society. While it’s probably seen as a bad thing in the US (one would expect that given the general competitive culture) or in the UK (where something else is behind it, I believe) it’s quite different in a place like Denmark. Coming from the latter place and working in the UK now I had the chance to experience that.
From a personal viewpoint I’d have to say that advising against discussing salaries is wrong. You should advise to be wise about it instead. It’s also rather interesting that you’re only judging this thing from the managers perspective. Sure you’ll have negative experiences from the viewpoint, but did you stop to think that maybe there were other problems behind this? As an example, if you pay two people different salaries for the same job, don’t you think one of them might start getting a little negative if they find out? Your solution to this – make sure they don’t share the information – is not very intelligent. On the contrary, people tend to be very understanding once they know that a) they’re being treated fairly and b) they have all the info regarding the situation.
Regards
Fake
Keith LaFerriere
The subject of salary seems to be a hot one, and I’d like to clarify a few things.
I approached this topic from a manager’s perspective, but it would be silly to think that I’m only aware of that singular view. I think discussing your personal information should be handled with delicacy and tact. (Thanks, abhi G).
Fake: Your quote about that being an unintelligent solution isn’t true. The majority of your negotiating power in salary situations is having information that the director or hiring manager doesn’t. How would you fare if you were to walk into a freelance opportunity and immediately state that you make “100 whatevers” per hour? What if they would have paid more?
As to your other comment about two people making different salaries for the same job, there are many, many reasons for that to occur in the first place (lack or existence of a specialized degree, extra training, years of experience, etc…). Yes. I do think that they’d be upset. Hence my argument.
People are very understanding when you communicate; regardless of the information – good or bad. It’s up to the manager to explain to you why a situation is happening. If they’re not honest or upfront, then you’ve got many more issues than just “Why does Sally make more than Jane?”.
My advice to not share salary information is a general rule that I believe applies to at least 90% of the situations out there. If you disagree, fantastic. I like seeing both sides of the argument and I appreciate the comments.
Fake Fiftyone
I’ll start by saying what I should have stated earlier: nice and interesting article, it was a good read. Thanks.
Quote:
The majority of your negotiating power in salary situations is having information that the director or hiring manager doesn’t. How would you fare if you were to walk into a freelance opportunity and immediately state that you make “100 whatevers”? per hour? What if they would have paid more?
Your point was about sharing information between coworkers, not about holding your tongue when you’re in a job-interview. Unless I read you wrong.
Quote:
People are very understanding when you communicate; regardless of the information — good or bad. It’s up to the manager to explain to you why a situation is happening. If they’re not honest or upfront, then you’ve got many more issues than just “Why does Sally make more than Jane?”?.
That is exactly my point. In the situation of two coworkers being paid differently for the same job, you’re arguing it’s better to avoid the situation by having a corporate culture of “don’t share salary information”. I’m saying let people know why they’re being treated differently instead of trying to hide it. After all, you’re implicitly arguing that there’s a good reason for the difference in treatment so why assume that the workers cannot see the reasoning?
I would say that maybe your rule of thumb applies in the US 90% of the time but it certainly doesn’t everywhere. Which is not saying that you’re wrong, just that corporate culture accounts for a lot.
Regards
Fake
Keith LaFerriere
You read it right. After I pressed submit I realized that I should have put “this is just an example of sharing or not sharing information”. Thank you for addressing it.
Sure thing. I spent two years working internationally in both Amsterdam and London and while you are completely correct that corporate culture should dictate the situation, I can only speak from both my experience and my training. Comments from people like yourself help fulfill the obligation to paint the entire picture.
Cheers.
Jim Schuk
This a fantastic argument to follow and I hope other managers can both relate and understand how this subject (and honesty in general?) can help or hurt a situation.
Pepi Ronalds
Nice article Keith.
Further to what John K wrote… it’s not only versatility but also learning new skills which may result in a promotion (and larger increase) further down the line. Be careful not to overlook opportunities.
For example you may have expressed an interest to your employer that you’d like to learn project management skills. If your employer supports you in this they may take a variety of strategies, perhaps getting you to be the client contact while the lead PM is on vacation, maybe even giving you a small internal project – better yet, you may be asked to lead a larger project of your own.
As John writes, showing willingness is invaluable. So if given these opportunities be careful not to ‘bite the hand that feeds’ by demanding a review straight away (or, as I have seen happen, refusing to take on the seemingly less glamorous tasks like being asked to manage the client liaison while the PM is on vacation). It’s easy to forget that often employers are taking a risk in giving people opportunities to learn more skills.
Jon Victorino
Thanks for yet another great article. This article was especially useful to me as I’m starting my freelance career and I am also trying to land an in-house position. It’s valuable advice for both worlds.
Diane Vigil
I liked Pepi Ronalds’ comment:
Well said, especially as they won’t know immediately how you’ll handle it.
I think it’s also important to take stock of where you want to go with your career. Looking to the future is important and, while adding to your expertise is always a good thing, looking toward the "mountain" while treading the path.
Priti Saini
I can relate to this article completely. I asked this question ” Why was I hired?” on the 3rd day of my new job! (This is a brand company boasting to be one of the top in its industry.) The option to quit at that time was quite a risk since I moved to new city for the job and its a BIG brand!..the only option was to stick around, and
1> talk to the management and HR about the problems I preempted / foresaw,
2> try to educate the existing team about the new practices that were followed in the industry which will eventually help them in their business.
3> take it as a learning experience, be open minded to accept their reasoning behind their way of working
4> and lastly, improve my patience and tolerance levels
For 6 months, I did all of the above to stay on and get adjusted. But nothing really worked :(. Whenever I spoke of standards, I was ridiculed, whenever I asked for a process, I was given shocked looks, Web 2.0 became a graphic design trend but nobody knew what it actually was, quality checks is a term not heard of here. There was a little loss of millions, but thats ok in the beginning as its a investment period. In short I was in a BIG mess, stuck in a job I didn’t want to be a part of.
Things are different when you in the hierarchy lower than the middle management. And its worse when there are no meetings, no team alloted (though designation talks about it)and no senior to report to (hes always very busy! to hear you out). You cant bring in the change you want so easily, as you have to tackle people below you as well as the levels above you. There are very few people like you here and there, which you identify over the period of time.
Its then you realize, that before bringing in the change you want for the company’s betterment, you need to change yourself. Become one of them, abandon your thoughts and principles. Follow their methodology, in spite of knowing thats its wrong. Then start slow bringing in small changes. Get a course on EQ done. Sharpen your soft skills. You would see changes in a small way..but there is no guarantee that over the time there would be a drastic one.
Till then be patient and wait for the skies to clear. Thats the mantra shared by the HR head too:)
Apart from this I’m also keeping my eyes open for a good job that gives work satisfaction and the good money to run my house. The only things that keep me off from putting in my papers right away (that thought comes almost every alternate day!)is the money and the hope that someday things might change a little more.:)
Keith LaFerriere
Hi, Priti:
You describe a situation that happens to many, many people and is the underlying impetus for my piece. People make decisions based on either the perception or reality of a job that they feel fits both their financial and career goals only to find out that the world they know is about to be rocked hard by slow or uninformed practices.
To increase the severity of the situation, you add in that you’ve moved to a new city and are now in a new life; not an easy situation.
The good news is that if you’ve kept your nose clean and have “anything” to point to for work as a reference, the name of the “BIG” brand should help you.
Good luck!
Chris Barner
I really enjoyed reading this article. Very interesting read, thanks Keith for putting in the work and sharing this with us.
squarecat
The single most important issue when starting a new job (whether internal or freelance) might be establishing expectations up front. A list of granular bullet points isn’t necessary, but a few clearly-defined milestones can avoid the minefield of unmet expectations for both parties.
As for the topic of pay, if it’s handled with humility and propriety, why the big secret. It’s a mind game prospective employers play with job candidates and then we perpetuate once employed. Handled properly by a savvy employer it could be used to great effect in establishing and directly reinforcing my other point: expectations.
All else being equal, if Person A makes more than Person B, shouldn’t it be based on a transparent set of standards for skills, experience, and performance rather something as arbitrary as negotiating skills?